Trevor Maxwell: We get messages and notes on a weekly basis from guys saying, "You saved my life," or "Being in the Howling Place has given me what I needed to be able to have the resilience I need to do this." It's improved the quality of life. And we've done a couple surveys. We did a survey after the last Gathering of Wolves Retreat, and I think 97% of the respondents said that being part of Man Up to Cancer has helped improve their quality of life as they go through it. But to really look at that from a scientific, from a research point of view will just be so amazing and really helpful for our mission to put that research behind it. So I just want to thank you and the other folks at ORAU who are getting behind that piece of this. Speaker 2: Listening to Further Together the RAU podcast, join Michael Holtz and his guests for conversations about all things ORAU. They'll talk about ORAU, storied history, our impact on an ever-changing world, our innovative, scientific and technical solutions for our customers and our commitment to the communities where we do business. Welcome to Further Together the ORAU podcast. Michael Holtz: Welcome to Further Together the ORAU podcast. As ever, it is me your host, Michael Holtz from the Communications and Marketing Department at ORAU. And today I am ecstatic about this conversation. My very dear friend Trevor Maxwell, who is the CEO, founder, president, king, all the words of an organization that is exceedingly important to me, Man Up to Cancer is joining me on the podcast today. Trevor, welcome to Further Together. Trevor Maxwell: Michael, thank you so much for having me. It is an honor to be here with you. For anyone listening out there, Michael is one of my absolute favorite people and just a gem of a human being. And also just shout out to ORAU the tremendous work that all of your workers do and your staffers. So yeah, I'm happy to be on. Thank you. Michael Holtz: I am thrilled to have you here. We have so much to talk about and part of me is like, "Let's talk about this, let's talk about this." But first of all, let's talk about what Man Up to Cancer is because it's an organization obviously important to you because it was something that you conceived almost quite literally in the front seat of your car one day- Trevor Maxwell: True. Michael Holtz: And has become a very important organization to, at a minimum 2,500 men across North America. So what is Man Up To Cancer? Trevor Maxwell: Yeah, so probably later in the show we'll get back into what it was at the beginning, but Man Up To Cancer is a nonprofit with a mission of inspiring men to connect and avoid isolation during the cancer journey. So that's really the basics of it. And how we do that is we provide peer-to-peer support through community, and we have three core programs. The first is an annual retreat for men impacted by cancer called The Gathering of Wolves. The second is we provide chemo backpacks for members of our community who are going through chemotherapy, immunotherapy, other cancer treatments. And the third is that we have local chapters that have developed across North America and beyond now. We have about 40 local chapters happening where men in their local regions who are impacted by cancer can get together occasionally, see each other in person, go out and go to a ball game or do a cultural event or have a dinner and also meet up on Zoom. So Man Up To Cancer started just before the pandemic in 2020, and I didn't know what Zoom was at that point. And now we pretty much use it all the time. So a lot of our guys do meetups and our chapters do meetups on Zoom. And as you said, the core of our community is a Facebook group called Man Up to Cancer, The Howling Place where we have about 2,500 men in there. And those are all men who are patients, survivors caregivers. Any man of any age who has been impacted by cancer is welcome in our community. So that's what it is. We just became a nonprofit organization in the past couple months at the end of 2023 after nearly four years of just development as a community. So that's been just really exciting and honestly, as the founder and CEO now, terrifying to enter this new phase, but it allows us to move into this next phase of our life and Man Up to Cancer is growing up as a nonprofit. And it allows us to build our programs, build capacity and start to serve more men who are impacted by cancer. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. And for full disclosure for our listeners, I am a member of the board of directors. I am the fundraising director, which is a volunteer position to help ensure that money is coming in to make sure that we can do those three fabulous programs that we do so well. Trevor- Trevor Maxwell: Hold on. Let me interrupt you on that one though. I have to say, I thought Michael was going to say no when I asked him to help us out because he has 10 other jobs and he does them all so well and with a hundred percent of his effort and energy. But man, this guy, if you don't know Michael, he is a rock star in the cancer community as an advocate. He's well known coast to coast, and he's been a member of Man Up to Cancer just as a member. And as I was looking to build out our leadership team, I couldn't think of anyone better than Michael Holtz to come in and help us. And the one place where we really need help the most is fundraising, is to get those dollars in so we can support these guys going through cancer. And I asked him to do it, and thank God you said yes, Michael, because you have made such a tremendous positive difference, not only in helping us to start out as a nonprofit organization and being on the board and all that, but just in being you, your personality, your generosity, your spirit, your humor. You are someone that people look up to and gravitate towards. So to have you as part of our mission has really been just a tremendous help to getting us going. And I hope we do this together for a long time. Michael Holtz: I do too. I really do. And thank you for all of that. It is an honor, and I have to say that we talked about it for a while. I was on the fence for a little while, and then the Gathering of Wolves 2023 happened. Gathering of Wolves is the annual retreat that Trevor talked about. And if you will imagine 110 male survivors of cancer, many of whom are in the thick of treatment as they arrive at Camp Duffield in Buffalo, New York, spending a weekend with those men. And I've said often I fell in love with 110 men in one weekend. We all knew each other. I met Trevor a year ago, March. We'd known each other virtually. Joe Bullock, who is the chief operating officer, all of these guys that are connected to virtually through The Howling Place to meet them in person and spend a weekend just talking. The great thing about the retreat is there's not really a program. It's a bunch of guys sitting around shooting the shit, as they say, and having conversations and learning about each other and really just digging into who we are and most importantly, expressing affection and love and being there for each other through grieving and celebrating and all of the things that happened over the course of that weekend. I knew by the end of the first day I was like, "All right, you got me. I'm there." Trevor Maxwell: Yeah, we got you. We got you with our special sauce. We did not drug Michael. If that's what you're wondering. Michael Holtz: That's right. Trevor Maxwell: Right. But it makes me think of the name of our organization itself, which can be a little challenging for some because they hear the name Man Up to Cancer. And usually when you hear that phrase, man up, Michael, what are some of the things that you think of when people say Man Up? Michael Holtz: Oh yeah, just buck up and do it and get through it. And we're supposed to be stoic and heroic and John Wayne it through- Trevor Maxwell: Bingo. Michael Holtz: Whatever we're going through, right? Trevor Maxwell: Yeah. So that's it. People think you don't talk about it, you get back up on that horse, you don't burden others. And the secret of Man Up to Cancer is that's actually very tongue in cheek because what we lead with really is heart and we model showing vulnerability as a man, even if that's just to say, "I'm having a hard time and I really could use some help." That is the core of who we are is that vulnerability mixed with that toughness, we definitely have that there. But also just that saying, I love you and supporting each other as men and having a brotherhood that is unapologetically loving toward each other, genuinely supportive. So I called it Man Up to Cancer because again, in a tongue in cheek way, what I'm trying to do is say that man up isn't just about being tough. It's about having the courage to accept help along the way through life's greatest challenges, one of which is cancer. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Trevor Maxwell: So part of this is really challenging culture and redefining culture to say that that old version of manning up just doesn't help you live your best life. It doesn't help you get through cancer, that's for sure. So I just wanted to touch on that in case people... Some people get turned off by it, but once they even look at our website or look at any of our content, they're like, "Oh, these guys are different. They're actually pretty progressive guys." Michael Holtz: And it's that dual-edged sword, right? Because on the one hand, you've got men are supposed to be stoic and heroic and man up and just got through it. And on the other hand, we are unashamedly affectionate toward each other, right? Trevor Maxwell: Yeah. Michael Holtz: And societal views writ large about male to male affection is not good. There are lots of biases and lots of opinions about that. And Man Up to Cancer is an organization unlike any I have ever been a part of in terms of that level of open-heartedness. And you say open heart warrior spirit is the motto of man up to cancer. And it's true. We come into this open-hearted fighting together. The strength of the wolf is the pack, the strength of the pack is the wolf is we're better together. Trevor Maxwell: So I decided to use the wolf pack and the wolf as really the motif, the theme for all things Man Up to Cancer, because of the way wolves care for one another. They are very social creatures. If one wolf is sick or injured, the other wolves are not going to abandon that wolf. They're going to circle with that wolf and make sure he's protected so that he can heal. And if that wolf passes away, they grieve. They have mourning rituals. So it was my thinking as men, why aren't we doing that for one another? Why are we supposed to handle this all on our own? So that's why the wolf motif exists. And to your point on this idea of men supporting men in a loving way, that is nothing new, it goes back to the dawn of time where, and I will say in the cancer community, there are spaces for women to support women. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Trevor Maxwell: There are spaces that are co-ed, and there are spaces that are men supporting men. And that's okay. That's a very healthy thing. I think if you talk to any of the partners, spouses, loved ones of the men who are in Man Up to Cancer, they will tell you many times, they will tell you that their man is better and is kinder and more compassionate and is just better off because of his interactions with other men in our group. And that's one of the really cool things that I've seen come out of it. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. And yeah, we've seen that. I know in messages that we get in The Howling Place and from spouses of men in the group, on a regular basis, how meaningful the organization is to their men. Trevor Maxwell: Well, and the bottom line is when you help a man who is impacted by cancer especially, who is going through a really emotional tough time, and they're not supposed to talk about it or share about it, when you help that man, when you give him support, when you give him people to lean on, that also helps their loved ones, their families, their communities. It helps that individual, that man really become back engaged in life in many ways. I know that was true for me. I really struggled with mental health, particularly early on in my cancer journey with anxiety and depression and isolation. And having the support of others, especially men who are going through the same challenge, really has helped me regain my footing and get back to being the dad and the husband and the person that I want to be. Michael Holtz: So Trevor, talk about the moment, and I know it wasn't just a single moment, but the moment that you put on video basically that said, "This is the moment that I'm deciding that this is happening, that Man Up to Cancer is going to be a thing. Trevor Maxwell: So this one will probably be a little long. So I was diagnosed with stage four colorectal cancer in March of 2018. So I'm coming up on six years of being in the thick of that. I've had seven major abdominal surgeries. I've done a bunch of chemotherapy, immunotherapy. So I've been in the trenches for quite some time. And again, like I said early on, so 2018, 2019, my mental health, dealing with all the physical stuff of cancer, the surgeries, the chemo, all that stuff. I could handle that, but it was the mental challenge. It was the mental health. It was the going through the anxiety, the depression, the fear. Our girls were 12 and 10 years old when I was diagnosed and I thought, "I'm a goner and I'm going to leave my family behind and I'm failing my kids." And I was ashamed and dealing with all those things. And I went to bottom. I really hit rock bottom to the point of where my will to live was really hanging in the balance. And I was really, really fortunate because I have a wife and a family who I wanted to just go out in the woods and disappear and say, "I'm a burden to you. I don't want to do this. I just want to let you be." And my wife's like, "Nope, that's not happening." She's like, "We need you. We here. It doesn't matter how long your life is, we need you here to be you. We need Trevor in our lives." And I got some tough love and realized that I was in a pit that I could not crawl out of myself. And I think that's some guys, if you're going through that emotional, if you're in that emotional pit where you cannot see a way out of it and you don't think you're ever going to get better, sometimes you need people around you to show you that you can. But getting to that point where you acknowledge that you need help. See, when we talk about guys and our stubbornness and our emotions, that's often the sticking point. Fortunately for me, I got there, my family helped me get there, but I was there. I was like, "I need help." So I started reaching out. I started reaching out to the Dempsey Center, which is a wonderful resource here in the state of Maine that provides all kinds of free services to patients and our families from individual counseling, group counseling, exercise, nutrition, all the different things that provide holistic care outside of the treatment for cancer. So I started going there and I started going to counseling individual and group. And I started finding people online through Colon Town and The Colon Club and fight CRC, through these groups where... I thought I was the only one at age 41 diagnosed with colon cancer. And turns out there's thousands of us, but you just have to find them. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Trevor Maxwell: So fast-forward, as I was accessing all this help and I was starting to turn around, that's when my life started to turn around. When I got the help from others online and the Dempsey Center and elsewhere, I started crawling out of that pit. And as I started getting better, that was the light bulb moment for me was every resource that I went to, online, Dempsey Center, no matter what, it was always 75% to 80% plus women who were engaged with those resources and 25% or less men who were engaged with those resources. And at first I was like, "Okay, this just means that I am an outlier, that most men don't really need help, that they're not struggling, that they're fine." And I thought I was weak. I'm just weak and I can't handle it. But then I was like, "That cannot be true." And I started to come up with this thought. I was like, "Maybe there's men out there feeling the same things that I've felt going through the same just trauma, emotional trauma that I'm going through, but they don't feel comfortable accessing those supports for many reasons, not the least of which would be the stigma around men asking for help." So I'm like, "I bet you there's all kinds of men out there feeling the same things, going through the same stuff, but not feeling like they can do anything about it. Just feeling alone and isolated." And that's when I was like, "I should do something." Because I always wanted to take the hand that was dealt with me and do something positive with it. And my wife, yet again, Sarah, she encouraged me. She's like, "You have skills." So my background is in journalism and public relations and communications. And I also am one of these people that tends to be able to relate to guys from any background. And she was like, "You can be that bridge. You have the skills to start something or to do something for the guys going through cancer who aren't accessing those traditional resources." So this was the end of 2019, and I was like, "You know what? You're right." And I was starting to feel like I was kind of shot out of a cannon. I was like, I'm ready to be an advocate. I went to Colon Town invited me to Empower Leadership training in San Diego that November, which was massive for my development as an advocate. And I came back and I was like, "I'm going to do this." I'm going to start something. And at the same time, I was obsessively watching documentaries on wolves. I was also on a high dose of prednisone at the time for immunotherapy related inflammation. And anybody who's been on prednisone especially, and my dose was 60 milligrams, which if you're on 60 milligrams of prednisone, you're not sleeping and you're just wired and you're coming up with all kinds of ideas. I do not recommend this as a recreational. This is not something to try at home people. But for me, everything came together and I came up with that. I was like, "I want to do this thing called Man Up to Cancer." And at the time, I was just a content person. One of the things that really frustrated me too was everything you saw from Men in the cancer space was either just it wasn't real. All the content out there, the magazine articles, the blogs, people weren't really talking about what it's like to go through cancer as a man. And I'm like, "You know what? I'm just going to start talking about it." So I started writing about it. Michael Holtz: And most of it was created by women, right? Trevor Maxwell: Yes, that's actually true. So I started a website, I started blogging about it, and I planned for a podcast and I just thought, "I want to start this thing called Man UP to Cancer where myself and I could..." The whole vision was to gather a bunch of role models who would show the world what it's really like with no filters and to be real and raw about it, because I felt like that's something that could help me. And also just to be honest about it and talk about, "Hey, yeah, I've struggled with depression, anxiety. I'm not ashamed of it anymore. I'm not going to be ashamed of that. That's real." And actually, I've learned that it's very common. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Trevor Maxwell: So that was the beginning of 2020 started it, and then the phenomenon that is Joe Bullock, shout out to our buddy down in Durham, North Carolina. Michael Holtz: That's right. Trevor Maxwell: He saw the group that I was creating, and he came on board guns a blazing and was like, "This is what I want to do too." And so then between the two of us, we just got to work and we just started doing content and creating the community. And the Facebook group just started growing, and that was four years ago. And now it has snowballed into an actual nonprofit organization that's up and running and hopefully is going to be around for a long time. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. I'm proudly one of the OG Facebook group members from December 31st, 2019 when The Howling Place originally opened its doors. Trevor Maxwell: Did Joe find you too? Michael Holtz: Joe found me too. Yeah, because on social media, if you talked about colon cancer aloud at that time, well, and when I was diagnosed, there weren't a lot of people talking openly about their cancer experiences anyway. So by 2019, there were certainly more, and I was connected to Joe and I may have been connected to you and others, and he invites everyone he knows who's ever talked about colon cancer for sure to be part of that first group. And that's how he started and lurked in and out for a while. And the great thing about it is you can be as involved as you want or not. Trevor Maxwell: Oh yeah, absolutely. Michael Holtz: Eventually just kept feeling this gravitational pull to Trevor Maxwell and Joe and the guys. So Man Up to Cancer didn't exist when I was diagnosed in 2012. There weren't a lot of resources. So I did the co-ed support groups, which were great, and they were helpful and beneficial. I have no knock against that, but there are things that men are not going to talk about in a support group with other women just as women are not going to talk about certain topics in a support group with other men. Trevor Maxwell: Hundred percent. Michael Holtz: So the need is great. And selfishly, just in addition to the fact that I love Man Up to Cancer and I love you, and we are very close friends, I am very passionate about the issue of men's mental health in the cancer space. And this white paper that I've talked about on the podcast several times, one of the recommendations is a study of the benefits of peer-to-peer support from men facing cancer. And so hopefully a research project will be done that quantifies what we're doing. You and I know you and the rest of the leadership team and the guys in the group know instinctively from anecdotal evidence what Man Up to Cancer does benefits guys. There is no doubt about it. We want to be able to measure that and to be able to say, "This is what we're doing from a quantifiable data-driven perspective," because data drives grant dollars and data drives some fundraising. Trevor Maxwell: Yeah, it's really exciting. I mean, when you first told me this idea, I was just thrilled because we do know. We do know anecdotally, and we get messages and notes on a weekly basis from guys saying, "You saved my life," or, "Being in The Howling Place has given me what I needed to be able to have the resilience I need to do this. It's improved the quality of life." And we've done a couple surveys. We did a survey after the last Gathering of Wolves Retreat, and I think 97% of the respondents said that being part of Man Up to Cancer has helped improve their quality of life as they go through it. But to really look at that from a scientific research point of view will just be so amazing and really helpful for our mission to put that research behind it. So I just want to thank you. And the other folks at ORAU who are getting behind that piece of this. I think there's very little out there for male peer to peer support. So to be able to look at it from a scientific lens is really going to help. Michael Holtz: I'm really personally thrilled, but organizationally excited for the possibility and the doors that can open for the organization, but just for the research, because again, there's not a lot of research being done on peer-to-peer support because there isn't a lot out there, unless you're a guy with prostate cancer. There seems to be a ton of support from men in the prostate cancer space. But for those of us who are in colorectal or breast cancer, because guys do get breast cancer as we know, because we have a number of guys in the organization who are breast cancer patients or survivors, that male to male support isn't there. So being able to quantify that and measure and all of those things, I think is going to be huge in a lot of arenas, not just ours. Trevor Maxwell: Yeah, absolutely. Michael Holtz: So I'm looking forward. Trevor Maxwell: One of the things that, so being a journalist by training, when I started Man Up to Cancer, I knew instinctually what the need was, but I did a pretty as thorough as I could do review of literature around isolation, isolation and its impact on people going through cancer. And what I found was, yes, absolutely, men tend to isolate at a higher rate than women when facing cancer or any other life-threatening illness for mostly cultural reasons, obviously. But then the consequences of that. So people who isolate going through cancer have higher risk of mental health problems, higher risk of suicide, higher risk of having relationships break, so marriages or other relationships. And the kicker, people who isolate going through cancer have worse medical outcomes. So when I talk to people about getting support, whether it's Man Up to Cancer or any other support resources that are out there, and there are many, I talk about those three consequences. This is not just Kumbaya, let's to get together and hold hands, and we're getting through this together. There's concrete scientific evidence out there that will tell us that isolation has really harmful consequences and can cost you your life if you're going through cancer alone. So I just wanted to mention that, and I think what you're working on with this white paper will really scaffold on that. Michael Holtz: Yeah. One of the alarming statistics that I discovered in my research was the rate of suicide among men who were diagnosed with cancer. About 13,000 people a year commit suicide after a cancer diagnosis, which is crazy, 83% of those are men. And so I was in a conversation with a group of folks the other day, and one of the people said, "Well, men have the highest rate of suicide generally, so that's not surprising." And I said, "Well, it may not be surprising, but it points out that there's a huge problem." Trevor Maxwell: Right. Why does it need to be surprising to be something that is worth our attention? Michael Holtz: It's a huge problem. If men's mental health without cancer in the picture is a huge crisis, and it seems like it is, throw cancer in the mix, and you've just lit an even bigger fire. So we got to do something. Trevor Maxwell: A hundred percent. And it reminds me of when I started Man Up to Cancer, or even now, some people, when I tell them about the 75%, I call it the three to one rule that women are accessing supports at a three to one rate versus men. Some people just shrug like, "Okay, well men don't want help. Tough. It's up to them." It's like, "Why don't we care?" I think we should care enough about men in our culture who really are broken. And it's like, I just can't imagine having that attitude where it's like, "Oh, well, that's just the way it is." Well just because it's the way it is doesn't mean that it's right. And it doesn't mean that it has to always be like that. So your point on that, we need to do better with men's mental health overall. Michael Holtz: Overall. Trevor Maxwell: But when cancer is layered on, to your point, that just brings that pot to a boil. And that's one of aspects that we are working on. Michael Holtz: And one of the interesting things that I've found in being a member of Man Up to Cancer and talking to you and being available to support other guys is the need is different depending on the individual. So there are some guys that they want to talk to somebody and you'll be on the phone with them for an hour, sometimes longer, just depending. And then there are other guys, there was a situation that I was in not long ago where someone posted and said, "Is anyone available to talk?" And I'm like, "Here's my number. Give me a call." All he wanted was to be acknowledged that he was in a tough spot and he was feeling a lot of pain, and he knew I couldn't do anything about it, but he just wanted someone to know, "I feel like crap and I hurt physically because of treatment." Trevor Maxwell: Oh, man. Michael Holtz: And that's all. Trevor Maxwell: To be heard, to be seen. Michael Holtz: The conversation didn't go any... He didn't need anything else except for someone to acknowledge and to see him in his moment of pain. And he said, "Thank you for calling." And I know you've been in those kind of conversations where it's talking someone off a ledge on the one hand, or you're just recognizing someone. Trevor Maxwell: Yeah, absolutely. That witnessing, that's rare in our culture, and I think we're doing it really well with Man Up To Cancer. Sometimes it's just active witnessing and active listening. Sometimes that's all someone needs is to know they're not alone. It sounds trite, but that's what humans are all about. And that gets at that isolation piece. Some people don't have that in their lives, and I'm painfully aware that a lot of the guys who are part of the Man Up to Cancer community, they don't have the family that I have. They don't have the friends that I have. A lot of them are very isolated. And so we're fortunate to be able to have that backstop so they can go on our, in the Facebook group and say, "Hey, is anyone available for a chat?" And there is always multiple people who are there for them. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Which is remarkable and a wonderful part of what our organization does and not... There are what? 14 people on the leadership team. It's not just the leadership team, it's members of the organization who make themselves available. Trevor Maxwell: Yeah, absolutely. And for structural purposes, now that we're a nonprofit, we have to have a structure. We have to have a leadership team, and that's normal. But I would say that titles don't make leaders. Michael Holtz: Nope. Trevor Maxwell: Actions make leaders. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Trevor Maxwell: And if you're looking at that, we have literally dozens of guys, if not hundreds in our community who are leaders, and they show that all the time by how they treat one another. And I just couldn't be prouder of the group of guys that engage in our community. Michael Holtz: And the work that we do can be very hard sometimes. Trevor Maxwell: Oh, yeah. Michael Holtz: Because like a wolf pack, we grieve the members of the pack that we lose who are in hospice, who we fret and worry when you are having surgery, when other members are in treatment, having emergency surgeries for whatever. And we rally around each other always. Trevor Maxwell: Yeah. And I think we share. Not only do we share the burden of cancer together, but we share the burden of that grief as well. And in that way, we can cope a lot better. We can cope a lot better because we know that we're all sharing that burden. And I will say the science behind cancer support groups is clear that it's beneficial, but there are still people, still professionals out there who caution people against making friends with others with cancer because of, "Well, you're going to make these great friends and then they're going to die." And it's like, "Well, that's true." So does that mean that people shouldn't befriend me? If you're that person, these relationships, I always say the grief that we have in losing our friends is only eclipsed by the joy we have in knowing them. I would never give up these relationships that I've had. And yes, I've lost people who are close to me and that's being human and that's cancer, but I would never take that away from my life. I cherish those relationships and they're meaningful to me, even though those people are no longer physically with me here on this earth, they're still my friends and they're still important to me. And I want the same for myself. I don't want people to abandon me because I have stage four cancer, and they're worried about getting close to me. So to me, that argument is just, it's a false one. There's no safe way to get through this human experience by not befriending people or not engaging in all these relationships. I'm being really inarticulate about this at the moment, but it strikes me as offensive that people would say, "Well, don't make these friends because you're going to lose them." I hate to remind everyone, but we're all going there at some point. Michael Holtz: We're all going there. And I've had people ask, "How can you keep doing this? How can you..." And I'm like, "Because I have to mean. I've told you I feel called very specifically to this organization. But aside from that, as you said, and CS Lewis says the same thing, "The grief that we feel is the deal." Part of the deal with loving somebody is there's going to be grief at some point because that person isn't going to be here anymore. Trevor Maxwell: That's right. Michael Holtz: And my best friend in the world has stage four colon cancer, and I'm going to be the best GD friend I can because neither of us knows. Trevor Maxwell: Absolutely. Michael Holtz: We don't know. And Ryan and I had the conversation at Gathering of Wolves last year. We do the Fire of Remembrance where we're calling the names of the guys who passed away during the previous year. And it occurred to me as we're sitting there, next year, I could be reading your name. And he was like, "Well, next year I could be reading your name too." Trevor Maxwell: That's an honor of a lifetime. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Trevor Maxwell: Of course, sometimes the cumulative effect of losing so many people, especially when I'm in this organization, that's part of the experience of my work, but I wouldn't have it any other way. It's the privilege of a lifetime to be able to have these friendships and to help some of these people, to help walk them home. And it's going to be an honor when it's my time and I know that you and so many others are going to be there to walk me home. And that's what we do. And is that deep and serious sometimes and hard? Yeah, it is. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Trevor Maxwell: You have to, like you just said, and Lee Silverstein said the other day when I talked to him, "Grief is the price you pay for love." And man, I want to love as much as I possibly can in this earthly form. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Trevor Maxwell: Another thing that I usually do is you can't let every loss, when you're in my job, you can't let every death in the group crush you to the point where you can't function because there are people depending on me. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Trevor Maxwell: And I know that those people that we lose would want me to rise up and continue to do this work. They don't want me to fall apart either. So I think of some of the guys every morning, like Jared McMillan, for example, Mack, we called him Iron Wolf, just such an inspiring force in The Howling Place. And I think of him and I get up and I'm like, "What would Jared want right now in this moment?" And I just hear him being like, "Go crush this day. Just go crush this day." And that doesn't have to be running a marathon or climbing a mountain. It can mean having that phone call with someone who needs it or taking one of my daughters out to lunch. But one of the ways that I can honor those men that have passed away is to live my life to the fullest and to live the days that are given to me. Michael Holtz: And to share that love with another person. So keep it going. And initially I struggled, and we talked about this, in my being on the wall or on the fence about joining a leadership team. I'm an 11, 12 year survivor. All of these guys are in the middle of it. And I remember Jason Reese at one of the, I don't remember which fire he was like, "Dude, you're the hope for all of us." Trevor Maxwell: A hundred percent. Michael Holtz: And regardless of that, what I hope I bring to the table and what I hope the guys see, and I know you see it, is just the love and the heart and the affection for all of these guys. And the favorite part of any event where I've gotten to see you or Jason Reese or other guys, Ryan, from Man Up to Cancer, is to have that long awkward hug where you feel the other person literally relax in your embrace because you're together and you're in that place and you're safe and you're cared for and loved. And that is a huge part of what Man Up To Cancer means to me personally, is this is the thing I can... If I can't do anything else, if I didn't raise another flipping dollar, if the only thing I can do is love a bunch of other men through life, cancer or otherwise, then that's enough. Trevor Maxwell: Oh, it is more than enough. And we all see that in you. It's every part of your being. You shine that through. And there's some people who just do that. And you bring that. You also bring that hope as a long-term survivor, and let's be frank, Man Up to Cancer as an organization needs people who are long-term survivors, and even people who aren't in the cancer trenches to contribute to our mission to be big parts of our mission. I think of you 10 plus years, I think of Joe, who's now five years no evidence of disease. Our leadership team, many of us are stage four and our prognosis, we know what that is. I'm still looking at a terminal prognosis. We don't know exactly what that's going to look like for years. But the hard fact of the matter is the leadership of Man Up to Cancer is going to turn over at a rapid rate. That's just cancer kills people. Let's not sugarcoat it. Just because we're doing something good with our diagnosis doesn't mean we have any protective qualities. Michael Holtz: That's right. Trevor Maxwell: But my desire, the hope of my heart is that Man Up To Cancer grows as an organization and becomes a go-to place for thousands of men who are going through cancer over the years. And I might not be around to see the seed grow into this massive tree, but I so badly want it to grow into that tree. And for it to do that, we need people like you. We need people who are going to be here for the long haul. And we can't shy away from that. We can't pretend that we're always going to be around. The faces around the table for Man Up To Cancer are going to change, but the mission is going to remain the same. I really believe that this organization can step into this void and be something really special for a long time. And I thank you for being one of those people who sees that and who wants to, has the passion for it. That's what we need. We need people who have a passion for the mission and realizing that it's not always going to be the same group of guys. Michael Holtz: So I was having a similar conversation with my mom last night about grieving, and she's grieving the loss of her partner of 10 years. Trevor Maxwell: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. Michael Holtz: Still grief isn't linear. So it's been a while. And on the one hand, she worries about how long it's been, and I'm like, "Dude, there's no... You effectively lost your second husband." Wisconsin doesn't have common law marriage. They weren't married, but they were together for 10 years. And this grief is different. And we walked through all of those conversations and I said, "I remember when I was in the thick of treatment, there were people who disappeared from the picture in the middle of treatment because they couldn't deal with it." I said, "Honestly, I feel like a first responder at the World Trade Center. I'm running up those stairs. I don't give a shit, excuse my language, what happens to me. I'm running up those stairs. I'm running to the guys who need help, who need support, who need the love, because they may not have it anywhere else." Trevor Maxwell: Spot on, man. I got nothing to add on that. Let's just mic drop. Michael Holtz: So anyway, bottom line for all of that. So before I let you go, first of all, I just want to say, if you're a guy listening to this podcast and you are a cancer survivor, you are in the thick of treatment, come and check us out. If you are not already part of Man Up to Cancer, visit our website, manuptocancer.org. Yes, we have a Facebook group, but we are working diligently if you are not on social media to connect you to the things that we do without having to be on Facebook. So that's a huge, huge goal of ours for this year. So you don't have to be on social media to be part of Man Up to Cancer. We would love to send you a backpack. We would love to get you connected to the chapter nearest to you. Maybe see you at The Gathering of Wolves 2024, happening first weekend in September. More details to come. But visit the website, manuptocancer.org. So Trevor does a podcast, the Man Up to Cancer podcast, which is awesome. And he ends his podcast with the gauntlet of random questions. So I've been on the Man Up to Cancer podcast and been through the gauntlet. So I'm turning the tables buddy. Trevor Maxwell: Oh, dear. Oh boy. All right. Michael Holtz: I think you can handle this. Trevor Maxwell: Okay. I'm just going to slap my face a couple of times. Michael Holtz: Question number one, what's your favorite holiday? Trevor Maxwell: Man, put me on the spot. It's got to be Thanksgiving. Just because my mother's side of the family has a huge and loving... There's lots of them. They hug a lot and intensely, and I'm like that too. Michael Holtz: Nice. Trevor Maxwell: So whenever it's Thanksgiving, we know we're going to hang out with all my cousins on that side of the family. And there's going to be wine to be had. There's going to be tons of hugs, and it's going to be chaos. There's just probably going to be five dogs running around. There's always new kids running around. It's just beautiful chaos and it's very loving. And that's one thing that I've done ever since I was a little kid. So I would say Thanksgiving, Michael Holtz: Awesome beach or mountains, and I know where you live. Trevor Maxwell: Geez. So yeah, I literally live, I can see the Atlantic Ocean from the room that I'm in now. Michael Holtz: Nice. Trevor Maxwell: That's how close we live to the coast of Maine. But mountains have always been part of my story and a place that we go regularly. So this is really tough, man. You're making me choose. If I have to pick one, believe it or not, even though I can see the ocean, I got to go with mountains. There's just something about hiking, even if it's just an easy hike, nothing crazy, just being in the forest, walking or hiking with my wife, our kids, our friends, or even just solo, there's something about being on a hill in the forest that appeals to my soul deeply, and it's a sacred place for me. So I'm going mountains. Michael Holtz: Mountains. I like it. If you could live anywhere in the world, where would you live? Trevor Maxwell: Well, besides right here, because honestly I am blessed that some Scottish people were brought here as prisoners of the British in the late 1600s, early 1700s. That's how the Maxwells ended up in New England was being indentured servants for the British. And they had to work five years in a mill. And then basically it's like, "Okay, go off and farm now." So I think I'm 10th generation Maxwell to live on this land. Michael Holtz: Awesome. Trevor Maxwell: And they were all farmers until my dad. My dad grew up in the fifties, sixties when everyone was getting off the farm. It was go to school, get educated. He became an English teacher and other stuff. That's why I'm not quite as big as you, Michael, but I'm a good 6'4, 220, 230. I was built to move heavy things, but now I sit at a desk and type on a computer. Anyways, so I'm going to leave it at that actually. I would not rather live any other place like. Being here in Cape Elizabeth, Maine with roots that go back hundreds of years and I can walk this property and know that I'm walking in the same spot as my ancestors is a gift that not very many people have. Michael Holtz: Absolutely. Trevor Maxwell: And I never want to take that for granted. So I'm going to stay right here. I don't need to go anywhere else. Michael Holtz: All right. If you could choose a superpower, what would you choose? Trevor Maxwell: Oh my gosh. You keep punishing me with these. These are truly diabolical. I think it would be to know what my wife is actually thinking when she says something to me. Because as a caveman guy, women in my experience, especially wives, there's a subtextual language going on, and she expects me to know when she says, "Hey, do you want to go out to dinner tonight?" That I'm supposed to have the prediction like, "No, I'd rather have a cozy, relax here and watch a show with you." Or, "Yeah, let's go out and have a great time." So usually I'm just like... But I think there's something under there. It's like they really want you to mind read, but I suck at it. So I'm like, "Well, what do you want to do?" And that's like, "Eh, wrong answer." So I think it would be to have that. I might regret that superpower over time, but getting a translation of what my wife really means when she asks me such questions. Michael Holtz: Got you. I like that. And last question, and this is not technically part of the gauntlet of random questions because I ask this question of many of my guests. Trevor Maxwell, what brings you joy? Trevor Maxwell: My family. Like I said, Sage was 12 and Elsie was 10 when I got diagnosed with cancer. And there's plenty of times along the way when I didn't know how many more moments that I would get with them. And this summer, they're going to turn 19 and 17. All these moments, all the sports games, the concerts, the graduations now, the simple times, laughing together, watching a movie, taking a walk, seeing them thrive and live their lives and grow has been the gift of my life. And when you are facing a life-threatening illness, none of those moments are lost on you. They all matter so much. I remember specifically in the fall, my daughter is a junior in high school playing on the volleyball team. And then my other daughter's a freshman at University of New Hampshire, and she's a singer. And so there's this game and Sage sings the national anthem, and it's just beautiful, amazing. The whole crowd is just blown away. And then Elsie is out there playing in the game, and my wife and my cousin and my aunt and my dad are all up in the stands. And I got to be one of the line judges parents get to be the line judges in the volleyball games. And I could just sit back and see Sage and CLC and see all my family up there. And that's when the gift of cancer comes in, because you will never cherish a moment like that so much unless you're facing something that has put your life really at risk. And it was one of those absolutely beautiful tableaus that I'll never forget. So this is a long-winded answer to your question, but what brings me joy is the moments that weren't promised to me, but thank God have been given to me. Michael Holtz: Awesome. Great answer. I love that. Trevor Maxwell: Ooh, getting to me, Michael, you're getting me going here. I knew it was going to happen. Michael Holtz: Might be tears at the end of the podcast after. Trevor Maxwell: Oh, God. Yeah. But thank you again, and thanks to ORAU. This has just been a great time talking to you. And I learned something. When we have these conversations, I'm always learning from you and just appreciate you, man so much. I love you. Michael Holtz: Back at you. I love you too, brother, and can't wait to see you in person hopefully sometime soon. But in the meantime, there will be meetings and there will be Zoom calls. Trevor Maxwell: Absolutely. Michael Holtz: Trevor, thank you so much for this opportunity. I really appreciate you being here. Trevor Maxwell: Thank you. Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to further together the ORAU podcast. To learn more about any of the topics discussed by our experts, visit www.orau.org. 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